PRQ# 10: Doug Swanson

This is Part 10 of the PRQ Series.

Doug Swanson


Doug Swanson is a pro racer out of the Midwest. Doug is a professional racer who also works a full time job. It's amazing to me the pros that hold down two careers like racing and a regular job.

Doug races on the regional Trek Factory Team. In addition to mountain bikes he also races cross with the mud to go with it.


His biggest win recently was at the Chequamegon, one of the biggest races in the country. In one of the closest finishes in the race's history, Doug outsprinted off road legend Steve Tilford.



I really appreciate his time in answering the questionnaire. His answers definitely show a lot of thought.

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General

-Who are your sponsors that you’d like to recognize?

Trek
Bontrager
Shimano
Rock Shox
VW
JBL
Powerbar
Cytomax
Nature Valley Granola Bars
Penn Cycle Bike Shops


-What makes an athlete a 'good investment' for a sponsor?
The best reason to sponsor someone is so you can sell more product. It's
a business afterall. We are another type of billboard out there. But a
cyclist can be more than just a sign. We test products day in and day
out, in real world settings. We are spokesman for the brands, a face to
go along with the names. A good investment is a racer who is not only
fast but one who can provide feedback and be a salesman.

-How long have you been racing mountain bikes, how long as a pro?
I've been racing mountain bikes since 1995. I turned pro midseason in
2002. I've been riding for Trek/VW since 2001.

-What are your goals for 2006?
Top five at CX nationals and Top 5 in the USGP of CX. I'm really hoping
to break into the pro 'cross circuit this year. Before the fall, I'll be
racing a lot of road races in the spring and then my main MTB races will
be Ore to Shore and the Chequamegon Fat Tire Festival. Those are the two of
the biggest races in the country in number of participants.

Bike Geek Stuff.

-What bikes do you race on? What other bikes do you own?
I will be racing on a Trek Fuel 110 with a Rock Shox Reba and Shimano
drivetrain.

On the road I race on a Madone 5.9

and I ride Trek XO1
frames for cross.

-How do you see XC technology changing over the next 5 years?
Good question. I think the biggest change is that the hardtail will continue
to fade away. I 5 years I don't think too many people will be racing on
hardtails for XC events. I'd like a bike with a really light internally
geared hub or bottom bracket. If it had about 15 gears in it ranging
from about a 44X11 to a 32X34 equivalent. External shifting is not
really that good for mountain biking, you have all this stuff that is
exposed to the mud and sand and if it was all internal I think it would
be a lot more efficient. Think, no more broken chains, mishifts,
chainsuck... that's where we need to go. I'm not an engineer so I don't
really know how to do that, but it would be cool.
*Editor's note. I've heard this concept mentioned several other places, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was a reality in a few years.

-What component or cycling gear would you pay full retail for if you had to?
I'd pay full retail for any bike part if I had to. I love racing so it
doesn't really matter what stuff costs if I need it. I'm lucky Trek
makes so much good stuff so I'm never really feeling like I'm missing
out on a technology. I guess I would say good brakes. I paid full retail
for some Empella froggleg brakes for my CX bikes.


They are a huge improvement over some others. I would pay full retail for disc brakes on my MTB's as well. It makes such a huge difference to be able to stop
when you want to. It gives you that much more confidence to go fast on
the technical sections.

Training/racing

-How many hours a week do you train (min, max, average)?
I used to log all my hours. I tried notebooks and spreadsheets and other software. I
just never looked back on it after it was logged. So lately I don't
really keep track that well. Since I have a full time job now I'm only
riding about 10-14 hours a week. I used to do about 20-30hrs 3 years
ago, but I realized I can be just as fast doing what I do now.
*Editor's Note: This is very promising for those of us with limited time. It's proving true for me too.

-Do you have a coach?
No. I thought a lot about it over the years, but I never found anyone I
believed could really make me faster. I think for a lot of people the
coach is someone who instills confidence in them. Someone who says "You
are so good right now, you're going to win this race!" A lot of guys
love seeing numerical gains, so coaches make you do all these tests to
show the gains. For me, I'd rather not know my numbers. I know what I'm
capable of out there and I just try to believe in myself.

-Do you follow a scientific periodized cycling specific training program
or ‘just ride’?
I used to. I had it all mapped out by the book. I didn't really like the
idea of only being fast for 1 or 2 races though, so I dropped it. To me
racing is 90% mental anyway. So I decided to go by feel and thought.
It's kind of a scientific approach, depending on your definition of
scientific...Now I race from April to December. I think I can get faster
through experience and mental preparation. I can do well in any race if
I focus enough. If I get tired, I take a couple of days rest, If I think
I need to ride more, I do that too.

-Do you strength train?
Yes, I hate the gym, but I love the way I feel after I'm done there. When I'm there I can really focus on stretching and flexibility and I think that almost makes more of a difference on the race course.

-How do you recover after a hard ride or workout?
Most of the time I just eat and sleep a lot and I can recover from most hard efforts. I try to drink a ton of water and if I am still sore I have a coffee and then I go ride slow for an hour. Why the coffee? It gives me enough energy to
get off the couch. Once I'm on my bike I usually feel ok.

-What is your nutrition protocol during a 2-2.5hr XC race?
I use water, Powergels and Cytomax. Usually a bottle of cytomax for lap
one, then water and gels. A bottle and a gel for every lap thereafter.
Or every half hour or so.

-What is your pacing strategy for an 2-2.5hr XC race?
In a big pro race I get as close to the front as I can on the first lap. I go as hard as I can go short of sprinting. Once I settle into a pace I'm comfortable
with, I try to conserve as much as possible by drafting, riding smooth
lines and controlling my breathing. But really, in some races, I'm going
all out for the whole race. I finished more than a few races last year
where I had to sit down as soon as I crossed the line.

Life

-How do you balance the stresses of regular life with training and
recovery?
I try to live as stress free as I can. I live close to my
work, so I don't have to worry about traffic. I don't buy stuff I don't
need, so I can worry less about money. I don't set a quota for training
hours, so if it rains I just don't ride that much. I don't watch the
weather or the news very often. Overall I just try to minimize
negativity in my life.

-Do you have a guilty pleasure?
Cookies. Always cookies. I cannot resist. And coffee. Don't even get me
started thinking about it right now.



-What advice do you have for those of us with families, and full time
jobs who want to race our best?
I would say, set realistic goals, and do the best you can to achieve
them. If you don't, try again next year. Cycling and racing are supposed
to be fun. Take it seriously while you're doing it, take the good vibes
home and let bygones be bygones. If you are racing you're already doing
better than someone who just sits in front of the TV all day, so even if
you get last, you're not really last.

Roadies smarts

I went riding with my neighbor who is getting back into cycling. Collegiate Cat2 now much older and just getting back into riding. One day on the trainer then a weekend ride.

Me with my full blown periodized training plan, yada yada. He outweighs me by 40lbs too. We did a short loop yesterday and came up a decent hillclimb.

It's amazing watching someone who knows how to ride a road bike. They are masters at energy efficiency. All of a sudden he'd be several bike lengths ahead and I'd have no idea how he did it. The mentality of never losing a wheel is something I need to develop better. When I get dropped in some ways it is more of a relief. Instead of that proper mentality of doing whatever you can to get back on.

At the bottom of the climb I hit it hard, but no hard enough to make it difficult for him, so he was just tucked in behind me. Then later I just didn't have the gas and he slowly pulled up.

It's one thing if you are so strong that you can just get on it and drop someone. But it was worthless to pull hard at the bottom. Just like my mtn bike racing, I need to develop that better sence of pace and timing. Next time I'm going to stay in control until closer to the top.

It's interesting how it all changes when we get on the mountain bikes. In my element my efficiency at riding technical terrain allows me to create a gap w/o going too far into the red.

XC racer site across the pond

I got an email from Luke who runs XCracer.com in the UK.


very nice site with lots of great XC information. It's nice to see some other XC specific stuff. We are so the redheaded stepchild.

Road bike musical chairs

**this is a long winded detailed discussion ** read at your peril of falling asleep.


My latest road bike isn't working out as well as I hoped.


I've been on it for several months now and now that the new bike euphoria has worn off I've been looking at the feel of it more closely. Lately, it has felt on the twitchy side, especially in the wind. Out of the saddle climbing has also felt twitchy. Descending has however felt really good with the bike diving into corners and holding it's line well.

The builder has been really nice about sending me the specs on the bike and discussing with me the causes of this feeling. He feels that the short stem on there is placing my weight farther back than was intended for the bike. I bought this used so it wasn't any fault of the builder. Just the user. He suggested that a smaller raked fork might help bring balance to it. This is a classic case of where having the right fit based on points in space doesn't work with a given bike.

But I am thinking that I'll do what I should have done in the first place which was working with a custom builder to iteratively and collaboratively design the best bike for me. I'm such a finicky person I should have known this wouldn't work out. Lately, I've been going through bikes like nobody's business. I don't want to when it comes to a road bike. I want a stalwart workhorse that will keep me happy for at least 7-10 years. Components may come and go but I really do want a frame that is so good that I won't want to look for another one for quite a while.

It's not an issue of losing any $$, as this is such a sweet bike that I'll make a profit on it. It's more of a time thing. But if you haven't realized this is what I do for entertainment. I don't watch TV, play video games, poker, shoot pool, or have any other hobbies etc.. Obsessing over the minutia of bikes is my reality tv.

I'm actually a little glad I made this mistake. Just like life, there are many choices to regret. But we wouldn't be the people we are today if we hadn't made those choices be them good or bad. Every bicycle I ride gives me more of an insight into what is the best bike for me.

With this frame, I had an opportunity to ride titanium. A nice titanium frame


The feel was sublime. Just like you read about. That velvety smooth cush Ti is know for, but yet still responsive and stiff to the point that all the road shock was vibrating the cheesey American Classic water bottle cages. Yet velvety smooth also has a touch of vagueness to it.

There is a springiness to high end steel that I felt with the previous frame.

There is still the soothing buttery feel associated with Steel and Ti yet a liveliness that reacts to each pedal stroke.

I think I like the feel of steel better.

I'm going to try to put in writing what it is I'm looking for in a frame in order to provide potential builders a starting point.

I know there are a lot of ideas bouncing around here, and it's just a start and I need the builder to help distill it down to a final product.

There are 4 things I'm looking for in a frame.

1) Fit
2) Function
3) Weight
4) Aesthetics


Fit

I don't care what the geometry comes out to be as long as it fits and it handles well and doesn't look wierd.

I had a Serotta Fit done at East Coasters several months ago.

The original set up looked like this:

(hard to see but -17degree quill as high up as it would go: 5.75cm drop from saddle to bar)

The 'fitted' setup looked like this


here are the size cycle pics:



Inseam 77.5

In a nutshell we found that my hamstring flexibility is very poor. Because of it my best power position is found with a much smaller drop to the top of the bar. However, counter to everything I though (with my long legs/short torso body) my arms were able to accommodate a significantly longer reach to the bar top and the hoods. So we brought the bar up and out.

This fit provided me the 'points in space' dimensions to setup a road bike.

Saddle height:69.5cm from BB to lowest point of the saddle
Saddle setback:2.5cm *dependent on this saddle
(*Selle San Marco ancient saddle. It has a weird look but it's been comfy. I want to try something new but have been scared)
Tip of saddle to Bar center : 47cm to 48.5
Tip of saddle to hood tip (diagonal): 65.25cm
Drop from straight edge on saddle to bar top:3.5cm

Toe overlap is something I've always lived with on a road bike, and it isn't that big a deal. I don't want to make the design of the bike super funky just in order to get ride of toe overlap.

For reference here are the dimensions of the last road bike and the current road bike

Richard Moon Custom lugged:

74 degree Seat Tube Angle
72.5 Head Tube Angle

Top tube (level) 50.5 c-c
Seat tube 52 c-c

Chainstay 40.7
Stand over 78cm from ground to top of bar. This is traditional geometry with a level top tube

Fork rake 1.7"
BB drop 6.5cm approx
Front Center: 54


* what I liked about this frame**
-Stable handling yet still responsive
-smooth feel on the road
-good looks
*what I didn't like
-internal brake cable routing
-the aesthetics were destroyed by the stem require to get the proper fit.

Current Road Frame
Custom Primus Mootry

* it looks like the saddle is pushed forward on the rails, but when you look from the underside, the saddle is actually pushed back on the rails. I think to get it centered on the rails, the seat tube should be slacker.
Head angle 73
Seat angle 74
Top tube angle 4.3
Wheelbase 973
Seat tube length (c-t) 517.9
Seat tube length (c-c) 480
Setback 143.6
Top tube length (effective) 536.6
Top tube length (c-c) 526.8
Head tube length 120
BB height 267
BB drop 65
Chain stay length 405
Front center distance 577
Rear dropout spacing 130
Fork length 370
Fork offset (rake) 45

* what I like about this
-light weight
-responsive to pedaling forces
-smooth buttery road feel
- upsloping top tube brings bars up

*don't like
-water bottle location too low on seat tube
-twitchy handling on flats and out of saddle climbing
-vague feel of ti
-Smooth feeling, yet road shock seemed to really rattle the water cages. Maybe it was too stiff.
*I had even put a 42.5rake fork on it, and it had the twitchy feeling. Builder suggested going to a 40mm rake. I couldn't imagine how it would feel with a 45rake as designed.


Function
37 years old
135 lbs
5'4.5" tall
Inseam is 77.5

Mountain biking since 1988, road riding since 1993. Racing mountain bikes off/on since 1989. Getting back into racing the last 3 years more seriously. 5-10hrs of training a week.

I race vet sport mtn bikes (hopefully vet ex someday). I don't race on the road but I train a lot. the riding out here, southwest-Virginia, is very hilly on rough back roads. Lots of short steep climbs, with some longer 12-20 mins and a rare 40min climb.

I want a very stable predictable feeling ride. But not slow like a touring bike. While I seem to be quite comfortable bombing down single track trails at crazy speeds, I am not comfortable in pacelines. I'm also not too daring when it comes to descending on the road bike. I'd like one that will help me become a better descender. And one that provides me the stability and comfort to train in groups.

But it has also got to be lively. With that get up and go feeling. It needs to lean over into turns when asked, and not fight cornering.

We also get a lot of wind out here.

For the most part I'm a sitter/spinner. And I love to climb. My weaknesses are sprinting and the flats. On a road bike I do like to get out of a the saddle for a few pedal strokes especially when it is steep. This was one area where I did not like the Mootry bike. The weight balance when out of the saddle was too far back, and I could tell than when on the hoods honking on a climb that it just felt terrible.

At 130-135lbs I'm pretty light yet I do seem to ride hard 'in the saddle' Over the years mainly wrt to mountain bikes I've broken anything having to do with the butt area: frames at seat tubes, at stays, seatposts, saddles.

For the most part road rides range from 1hr to 3 hrs. Rarely 4hrs+.

The bike will also do trainer duty on a Tacx Ergo trainer.

I want it all. Balance, stability, get-up and go, smoothness..

Current Build kit is 1999 9 speed chorus
Thomson seatpost
170mm cranks

Fork: Currently have Mizuno MR21 42.5 rake with 22.5cm steerer? Can it be used? I'd rather a fork be designed specifically for the frame than making any compromises in the frame design to accomodate a specific fork. What fork, carbon, steel, which rake, etc. That's the builder's responsibility to get pick what works best for the given design.


Same with stem. I need to know the exact stem length and rise. Or a range of stems that will maintain the proper weight balance.

Weight
I'm not racing except maybe a hillclimb timetrial once a year. I'm not a pro or even close. So in the grand scheme of it, weight should not be a major factor. Fit, comfort, and function should. But I'd be lying if I said weight doesn't matter. I weigh 130-135lbs. I'm not a sprinter.

I'd like the lightest weight frame that does not compromise the intended fit and function of the bike, and that is within budget. I don't care about a specific tube set. I'd rather each specific tube be hand picked to tune the ride accordingly while keeping weight in mind. Though I do want to know what the tubes are for reference. S3, 853, Ox Plat, Life, Niobium. It's all good.

Aesthetics
Simplicity
Elegance

Round or slightly ovalized tubes, no diamond shaped down tube
-I had a FOCO frame once where the chain stays were too tall and thin. Small diameter tubes and stays.
-No wishbone stays or anything too funky.
No carbon rear ends.
No internal brake cable routing
No integrated headsets
saddle centered on the rails. The Serotta fit suggested a 73 seat angle. But a lot depends on the saddle. The saddle I have now is weird it looks like it far forward when in actuality it is pushed back on the rails. But I'd probably use a Thomson Seatpost with it's minimal setback 27.2 preferred
-Braze on front der? I want the option to go compact crank at some time if desired.

Upsloping top tube to bring the bars higher, combined with taller head tube
not stupid sloping like true compact geom. Semi compact I guess is the term. Too much slope doesn't look right, but it has the be enough slope to get the bars in the desired position.

I'm not sure if a level top tube will work. My legs are so long that the frame might look too big if it had a level top tube in order to get the bars high enough w/o resorting to too high a rise stem.

Also not Hybrid like looking or with a really high rise or steep sloping stem. I have a reputation to uphold here.

Stem angle matches the slope of the top tube I love this look. The lines just look so much cleaner this way.

Stem needs a few spacers underneath least. The Stem can't go right on top of headset that looks weird

Frames like these represent what I am talking about

I'm not sure what it is that really draws me to this frame, but I love the look. Maybe it is the straight blade forks, or the simple color.



Decals are a little too heavy on this but the look is right on.

I like single color paint, but have also wanted Panels.

Something about the look of this bike is cool. The script logo works well with the panels, I'm not sure how a non-script logo would work

I've got a love affair with orange lately, and already have my in your face orange hardtail:

This is too in-your-face for a road bike though

But what about a more metallic sublte orange like the serotta Arancio


Color is a hard one.

I want something elegant, simple, subtle, but at the same time stands out. I can't tell you how many times I catch myself just staring at my bikes when they are leaned up somewhere. Looking at the lines, the geometry, the package. This bike has to be worthy of being stared at for no reason.

A frame can always be repainted to get that brand new bike feeling, But ideally I can pick the right color (and scheme if any:panels, etc.) That I won't be jonesing for that for a while.

Pace

Did some MSP intervals today.
3x12 mins on 6 off.

I've noticed on rides that my steady state seems good, but my ability to go in the red isn't. I would think it would be better after the trip given the technical sections and redline there. Though I also 4hrs of steady state w/o any redline.

In this MSP training, Dave warns that the legs will feel flat. This is the last phase before developing an in season plan that includes lots of races or race simulations that will bring back the life in the legs.

These MSP things hurt in a different sort of way. No tounge out, eyes popping vomitron kind of thing like the SMSP short intervals. Rather a dull achey pain that starts slow and builds. My cadence would drop from 100-low 80s through the course of the interval. And I just wanted to stop.

Did them at 270W and the last on I had to drop to 260W the last half cause I knew I wasn't going to make it.

I'm also trying to pay close attention to what these things feel like from a pacing perspective. Been thinking a lot about how to approach racing in terms of pacing vs. that racing mindset of redline , pin-it all the time sort of thing.

12min power output is certainly a lot higher than 2hr power output. Which is what I need to be running the races at. In MTB racing there is lots of riding outside of that steady state 2hr power for things like technical sections, passing, short hills, accelerating out of corners, etc. But I need to be very vigilant and judicious as to how often I go outside of the green zone and into the red. Each time I do that it is a match burned. Every match burned brings me closer and closer to the leg cramps which will shut me down.

I have to ask myself how much will I gain by burning this match now. Is it worth it?

There is an entrenched philosophy with racing. About going balls out, pinning it, redline, etc. And my biggest fear is leaving too much out there when I cross the line. But I am thinking that the reality of pace is that it feels like you aren't working as hard as you should. Which goes counter to the race mentality.

Obviously, I need to keep working on my ability to go into the red and recover back to the race pace. And I'm also working on increasing what that sustainable power output is. The hard part is gauging what the intensity should be and getting a good feel for it.

Bunny hop article at Biking Hub

I just posted a bunny hoppnig article at the Biking Hub. Instructional but part of it is how not to do it. I've been working on these a lot, but have a hard time really getting any height and timing on the trail

Bunny Hop article

Interestingly enough the skill I'm most using is pulling up on the front wheel and launching off stuff.

The difference between a bike geek and a cyclist

I went for a ride yesterday on the hardtail. Off road.

When I got back my wife asked me how it was. With a big smile I said how fun it was.

And with that quizical look that any bike geek knows, she asked me why I don't ride it more than the full suspension if it was so fun. Which is really code for why do you need more than one mountain bike.

Um..it's quicker.

Well than shouldn't it be faster.

Yeah, but quicker isn't always faster. Ya see, a full suspension is faster, but also more stable. and well, it's fun too.....

.... these conversations don't go on very long.

This is the fundamental dichotomy between someone who rides and someone who is a bike geek. My wife is a cyclist, a very strong cyclist. She has two bikes. A road and a mountain bike. She has had both bikes for more than 12 years. Neither bike setup has changed unless I put something on it.

I am a bike geek. I futz with my positions daily. I have had several bikes over the years and currently have a FS, hardtail, and road bike. I want a single speed hardtail, a trail bike FS and an XC fs, a road bike, flat bar cross bike, and cruiser commuter..etc. I swap out components ad nauseum.

Good thing there is room for all of us in the world.

SOLD: Custom Richard Moon Lugged Steel Frame/fork - Bayliss Paint

***Editor's note*** this bike sold within a few hours of posting it on the Serotta forum.
I should have asked for a lot more and probably could have held out for more. There are people who are willing to give their first born child for a Richard Moon frame, and some consider him to be on of the top 5 builders in the world.

Oh well, this guy is so happy it isn't even funny. He practically gave me his life story in order to convince me to sell it. And he said if I didn't sell it to him, his friend was probably going to beg and grovel to sell it. Nice feeling to do something nice for someone. But I got some good value out of it, and someone else is going to ride the heck out of it so everyone is happy.
**************

This is difficult to do but here goes:

For sale: Custom Richard Moon Lugged Steel Frame and Fork (and matching pump)



Introduction
This is a custom frame/fork that was commisioned from the Builder: Richard Moon of Folsom California in 1999. It was built based upon my static measurements.




Richard is a relatively small part time builder but he has an incredible reputation and has been placed in very high company. Classic Rendezvous considers him to be one of the Keepers of the Flame. The lug work on this frame is classic and understated

It was designed for the rough roads of Virginia. The ride is supple and smooth, yet it has some get up and go for the climbs. I do not race road bikes, but train often on the road and I wanted a smooth, fast, stable bike.

Geometry
I have relatively long legs and shorter torso so the geometry was designed around that.



74 degree Seat Tube Angle
72.5 Head Tube Angle

Top tube (level) 50.5 c-c
Seat tube 52 c-c

Chainstay 40.7
Stand over 78cm from ground to top of bar. This is traditional geometry with a level top tube

Fork rake 1.7"
BB drop 6.5cm approx
Front Center: 54

Standard Bottom Bracket-English

Construction and Tubing



This is steel lugged frame. He used BOCOMA that were stamped in a press. Bocoma lugs are not made anymore and at the time he had bought some of the last supply.



*I have cleaned it better since the picture




Everest full sloping crown




Braze on Front Der.


Shifter bosses on the down tube


Tubing
Reynolds 531 for fork
Reynolds 653 Record for main triangle
Reynolds 753 rear triangle

Weight
If you know anything about bikes like these than weight is not an issue. But since you are also a bike geek enough to know about bikes like these then secretly you want to know how much it weighs:

Frame: 3.57lbs


Fork: 1.3lbs



Paint
Richard sends his frames to the world known R. Brian Bayliss.


The color is known as WINE FIRE BLUE. The pictures do no justice and in the sunshine it sparkles.

The decals are all clear coated over with several coats and wet sanded between coats. You cannot feel the seam when you run you finger over them.


The lugs, except the BB, have been masked and painted an ivory color, with some gold accents on customized cutouts

The BB has been pin striped in gold.

This also includes a painted to match silca pump



Condition
This is a used and ridden bike. If you want a new pristine one then get in line.

It has never been crashed or layed down. No dents or major dings

There are some minor paint chips and scratches, and one major paint blemish.



The paint has started to rust on the internal cable routing:




On the underside of the left chainstay the paint started to chip. I sanded it down and put some primer on it. Yes I know it doesn't look good. Thankfully the only time you can see it is when you rack the bike on the car.



The answer to the eternal Why are you selling it question.

When I bought the frame, we designed it around my static body measurements. Recently I did a full Serotta dynamic bicycle fit. The results showed that I need a very small drop from the saddle to the bar, but contrary to originally thought I can also accomodate a longer reach. I can make this frame work with the new fit using a very tall quill stem or a long angled stem. But I think it throws off the look of the whole bike.

Not a good excuse to sell it I know, but as a good bike geek I am always changing bicycles. That being said, let it be known that I have owned this frame for longer than any other frame which says a lot.

I should keep it but I'm trying to do my part to simplify life and limit the stuff-if-i-cation of our lives. And someone else can get some serious joy and cachet out of this frame.

$800
$25 shipping

Paypal preferred.

You can check me ebay feedback (ashwinearl) to see my track record.

email with questions :ashwin@vtti.vt.edu